Is Peter David a bigot?I have to watch my mouth, really.
I find I always have to be measured in the things I write and I say. My biggest fear in life stems from saying something thoughtlessly, without malicious intent and inadvertently hurting a person or persons I care about because of my ignorance.
I think, it happens to all of us.
Without realizing it, we can say things we think are harmless and in the process hurt people by being misread.
I can remember being at the NY Comicon last year and seeing someone say something to another person and as good natured as it might have been, it was so over the top and hurtful to the person it was being said to. These were two professionals too, that was the amazing thing. One guy just blurted out something and later on I spoke with the guy who it was directed at and commended his restraint. It was that offensive.
The guy who said it though... not a clue.
Stuff like that happens around us all the time. Sometimes, it blows up in a big way (see
Jesse Jackson’s Hymietown statement or
Don Imus nappy remark). Sometimes it doesn’t because people are polite and just laugh it off so the person saying it can save face.
So, getting back to the original question, is Peter David a bigot? Probably not, a bit of a pompous ass and he might be a little insensitive at times but I don’t get the sense he’s a bad guy. Me writing the question though will only cause Peter’s blood pressure to rise.
Over two years ago, I started this entry:
I’m tired.
Here is one of the things I am tired of:
I’m tired of being sh*t upon because I’m Italian (or at least partially so and have a surname that ends in a vowel).
Contrary to the popular belief of all you stupid, ignorant f**ks out there, we are all not connected in some way to the mob. As a matter of fact here are some little jewels for you as of the year 2000 census there were 15,638,348 Americans who identified themselves as being of Italian ethnic origin. According to FBI estimates there are 25,000 people involved in what the government terms IOC (Italian Organized Crime). In essence it’s a little more than a tenth of one percent (0.16 percent if you do the math).
The problem is though; society in this country romanticizes Italian gangsters. All you idiots sitting around watching The Godfather or Goodfellas or The Sopranos and getting some kind of vicarious thrill off of it. Whether it‘s the result of having little going on in your own empty f**king lives or what.
I had been down in Little Italy and had taken these pictures:


Being in Little Italy and seeing that was offensive. All those tourists coming to New York and visiting Little Italy to get a souvenir and what do they take home? This s**t!
Oh, and I can tell you for a fact the people running the store weren’t Italian. This crap is just so blatantly stereotypical and discriminatory it’s beyond words.
I was reading one of the blogs I usually check out, in this case it’s Peter David’s. A few days back he wrote this:
And somewhere at this very moment...
...a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin‘ nickname...”
And I was kinda pissed.
It’s a bit of a cheap shot.
The inference is there; when I see the words ‘Mafia wiseguy’ I’m not thinking of a guy who is from Nepal or Suriname. I get the joke but it’s a little bit in poor taste. Peter David is a writer and I know he goes for the gag. He writes funny stuff, I’ve laughed heartily reading some of his stories but, this is a bit of a sore spot with me because of what I’ve seen above and also discussions I’ve had with relatives and friends who are of Italian descent none of whom are greatly thrilled by what seems to be open season on Italians. Somehow, it’s okay to define a whole ethnic group by romanticizing a very small portion of those people.
The whole, Italian/Mafia thing is a bit overblown as it is anyway. People watch the Sopranos and they buy into all that crap.
The problem is though; there isn’t balance in the representation of Italians in the media.
So, if you go to the thread, you can see where I wrote a response:
Thanks PAD for the Mafia reference, way to perpetuate a stereotype.
And... I hit the button twice because the browser didn’t seem to update the first time. I hit it so it got posted twice - which I hate and you can’t erase those posts there so I was stuck with this double entry. I went back to the thread and nobody seemed to pick up on it. They were too busy arguing about other things anyway. So, I got my two cents in and I figured that was that.
Stupid me. Silly rabbit.
So, I must have hit a nerve or something because I got a response from the man himself (and believe me when I say it is rare I get a response from Peter to anything I write):
Right, right. Because after “The Godfather,” “Godfather Part II,” “Godfather Part III,” “Goodfellas,” “Married to the Mob,” “The Sopranos,” “Analyze This,” “Analyze That,” not to mention countless real life trials involving criminals with similar nicknames, the “stereotype” was this close to dying off. And then I make a joke and suddenly it gains new life.
Please.
PAD
Wow.
I’m reading this and as I’m looking at it, I’m getting really pissed off. Why? All the movies the guy cites are movies about Italians and all of them are the kind of thing I find bothersome. I mean, take a look at those f**kin’ pictures from Mulberry Street!
So, I’m going to write something in the thread and I figure, ‘I’ve got the guys email address, why not just write him directly. It’s really nothing.’ I can imagine he wasn’t making that inference, I can give him the benefit of a doubt that wasn’t his intent but, his attitude is akin to GFY (think about it for a second). Not, “Yeah, I can see it now but I wasn’t going for that.” Just a good ole Fuck You this is the way the world is and my saying it doesn’t make any difference because everyone knows it’s true.
So, I write an email:
Hey Peter,
I was going to leave a comment for you but it's so much easier just to write you.
I'm going to call you on it.
I just want to understand... so you think perpetuating stereotypes is a good thing? Does this apply across the board or is it only specific ethnic groups you think it's okay to slam.
Like the Obama thing with the Fried Chicken.
Stupid. Beyond stupid, crude and ill mannered.
No less offensive than the nuts that run around in this world talking about how everything is controlled by a select group of Jewish bankers.
I mean, if I want to, I can go on at length with these things all day.
They're stupid though.
Thing is, I kind of think of you as a somewhat smarter guy than that. So, when you trot out some mafia stereotype as a means to get a cheap laugh well, guess what? Italians don't find it funny because popular culture in this country already goes a long way towards misrepresenting Italians here as evidenced by all the mob movies you were so quickly able to pull out of your ass.
Maybe you'd feel differently if every time you saw a movie that involved Jewish people it played to the same repeated stereotype as well. Of course, there are parts of this country that buy into the whole Jewish stereotype but, I'd like to think of those people as ignorant.
It occurred to me recently when I was reading a column about the top five comic book characters that was written for Columbus Day and there was a preponderance of them being tied into the Mafia. It's ridiculous.
For the record: as of the year 2000 census there were 15,723,555 Americans who identified themselves as being of Italian ethnic origin.
According to FBI estimates there are 25,000 people involved in what the government terms IOC (Italian Organized Crime).
“We estimate the four groups have approximately 25,000 members total, with 250,000 affiliates worldwide. There are more than 3,000 members and affiliates in the U.S., scattered mostly throughout the major cities in the Northeast, the Midwest, California, and the South. Their largest presence centers around New York, southern New Jersey, and Philadelphia.”
It works out to little more than a tenth of a percent! At 0.16 percent of the Italian population in the United States, excuse me if I think the representation in popular culture of Italians and association with the Mafia is more than a little bit skewed.
Also, if you substituted what you wrote for any other politically incorrect stereotype, you'd be pilloried because there is without question a different set of standards being applied.
PJ
and I get this back:
I actually figured the “so much easier” aspect relates to the fact that if you tried to pursue it, you’d have to deal with all the people who are going to tell you you're being ridiculous.
PAD
I know how these things work. I’m not a big lurker around those parts, I go, I read what’s posted and put in my two cents but I’m not looking for flame wars. I don’t ever look for flame wars (they find me sometimes but, I always try to just walk away from them).
Putting the thing up on the thread is no doubt about generating views for Peter and his website. It’s his playground, his kingdom so, the odds are stacked in his favor. However, I’m not over the top on this and I can’t understand why the guy is just being so obstinate. I would think just, as someone of his faith, he would have some kind of understanding of how these things work. Plus, the guy is a writer! Words are his business.
So I wrote back:
That’s condescending and you’re wrong whether you want to admit to it or not. Poll a bunch of Italian friends if you’re so secure in your position and see if they’re thrilled with your viewpoint.
It’s not cool and you’re being a total dick too.
I figure fine, if you think you’re right go out and ask a bunch of Italians if they like stuff like that and see what they say. You might be surprised.
Oh, and I used the word ‘Dick’ which to me is something mild. There are a lot of other words I could use that are a lot stronger but, you don’t use an elephant gun to swat a fly and it’s a minor disagreement. At least, that’s what I’m thinking.
Now in the meantime... back in the thread, this is going on - these are the responses it’s generating:
- mister_pj, it was a joke. It was obviously a joke and it was not an offensive one. You're coming across as oversensitive.
- The Sopranos was a documentary.
- mister pj, on what grounds is this perpetuating a stereotype? Tony is not an exclusively Italian name. Nothing in PAD's post was specifically Italian. The Mob does exist. They do tend to have colorful nicknames.
- Unless one takes any and all references to the Mafia as being aimed at Italians...in which case who is exactly perpetuating a stereotype???
and of course, because Peter likes a good fight (even when you’re not begging for one) and also because he is so much smarter than the rest of us he has to stir the pot because he likes to sit back and do that:
Posted by: Peter David: I'm not expressing indignation. That would require my being angry. I'm not angry because the accusation is too absurd to get angry over.
I just think you're just being ridiculous. And you can stop sending me private e-mails about this as well. If you want to press your case, do it here, but don't waste my time or clutter my e-mail box with this PC nonsense.
PAD
Posted by: mister_pj: Oversensitive, I like that.
Let me tell... you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
Maybe it’s not offensive to someone who isn’t of Italian descent but, this whole Italians=Mafia thing is a load of crap.
I pulled this off of Wikipedia:
(I cite the stats above, no need to repeat them)
It has nothing to do with being over sensitive as much as being tired of this bullsh*t and finally calling people on it.
- mister_pj: Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
PAD didn't make a joke about an ethnic group. He made a joke about the mafia.
You're the one insulting Italian Americans by implying that any comment about the mafia is a comment about Italian Americans.
THAT is why oversensitivity (PC bullshit) is bad.
- "Let me tell... YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny."
"To this day, Italian Americans are frequently associated with organized crime, and New York in the minds of many Americans,"
I think it is necessary to distinguish between two issues here.
First, popular culture in general traffics in stereotypes of Italians, Irish, blacks, Germans, hispanics, arabs, Jews, asians, rednecks etc. in jokes, movies, TV etc. But these stereotypes are usually not malicious, and I don't think the writers and artists who use them actually think that all members of the group in question actually fit the stereotype, nor do they use them in order to say anything about a whole group. Stereotypes by there very nature are an exaggeration, a focusing on one aspect to the point of absurdity.
Yet, if we look at the Wikipedia quote, it would seem that too many people take these stereotypes and apply them without the ability to distinguish between the stereotype and reality.
What does that mean?
And, of course, Joe is such a stereotypically Italian name...
- PJ, you may be unaware of this, but most of this country's minorities have, at one point or another in their assimilation into the Coll- er, I mean the American Melting Pot, had associations with organized crime. The Irish gangs in New York were pretty much overthrown by the Mafia; the Triads are still in evidence on the US West Coast; fortunately for us all, the Bloods and Crips fell to fighting among themselves before they could become much of a force on the national crime scene.
"Joe the Plumber" could in fact be a member of almost any of these organizations ("Joe" seems an unlikely name for a Triad member). It is only your own hypersensitivity that insists this is a slur against Italians. Way to perpetuate a stereotype, mister_pj.
Posted by: mister_pj: Okay...
Let’s say for the sake of argument I’m misreading things.
Mmmm?
Interesting then the examples that were pulled up, don’t you think: Right, right. Because after "The Godfather," "Godfather Part II," "Godfather Part III", "Goodfellas," "Married to the Mob," "The Sopranos," "Analyze This," "Analyze That," not to mention countless real life trials involving criminals with similar nicknames, the "stereotype" was this close to dying off. And then I make a joke and suddenly it gains new life.
All those movies that were used as examples? They’re about Laotians, Swedes and Namabians?
Oh! Before it becomes an issue, in my haste I misspelled Namibia. No slight against Namibians was intended.
- Do you find all these movies and TV shows offensive toward Italians?
Posted by: Peter David: Let me tell...YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
Yes. I do, actually.
And I know plenty of Italians who like Italian jokes, Polish who like Polish jokes, Catholics who like Catholic jokes, etc. That's because I tend to associate with people who don't wear their indignation on their sleeves.
PAD
Posted by: Peter David at October 18, 2008 03:13 PM
All those movies that were used as examples? They’re about Laotians, Swedes and Namabians?
They're all movies about mobsters. Nor was the original comment equating the Mafia with Italians. You did that all by yourself.
There's two issues:
1) Whether my initial comment equated Italians with gangsters. It didn't. (no when someone uses the phrase Mafia wiseguy they’re referring to the English, right Peter?)
2) Your insistence that there is a connection between Italians and mobsters. I listed the various films--most of which were very popular, very successful and generally well-regarded (except for GF III, admittedly)--to indicate that if there IS such a connection, it's already so firmly entrenched in pop culture that a passing comment by me, which did not in fact mention Italians (see point 1) perpetuated nothing except some peoples' need to take offense where none was presented.
Oh, and thanks for the private e-mail calling me a dick. I'll be deleting your future mails unread.
PAD
Posted by: mister_pj: Let’s talk about it this way, since it seems to have hijacked the thread and there was a belief that I would somehow shrink from defending my earlier statements.
One reason I make an issue of it so strongly, is because the individual who wrote it traffics in words and words are powerful things.
Let‘s look at the statement:
...a Mafia wiseguy called "Joe the Plumber" is saying, "I'm gonna have t'get a new f*ckin'" nickname..."
Now, if I write:
...a hitman called "Joe the Plumber" is saying, "I'm gonna have t'get a new f*ckin'" nickname..."
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.
Now, I say something about it and I get the indignant response: Because after "The Godfather," "Godfather Part II," "Godfather Part III", "Goodfellas," "Married to the Mob," "The Sopranos," "Analyze This," "Analyze That," not to mention countless real life trials involving criminals with similar nicknames, the "stereotype" was this close to dying off.
So, there is an acknowledgement a stereotype exists, but what? It’s okay? Is this a kind of wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing? Well, I’m being a dick but it’s okay because who really cares? I mean you’re being oversensitive!
If I write:
...a Yakuza called "Joe the Plumber" is saying, "I'm gonna have t'get a new f*ckin'" nickname..."
or
...a Russian wiseguy called "Joe the Plumber" is saying, "I'm gonna have t'get a new f*ckin'" nickname..."
Brings significantly different mental images, no?
In regard to what **** said, you know it’s a problem...
On the one hand I can watch the Sopranos and like it. It bothers me though, just as any of those other movies do, because they are perpetuating the stereotype and it is detrimental. People in this country don’t readily identify Madonna or Jay Leno as Italian even though they are.
I read a column the other day on the occasion of Columbus Day the subject being the top five ‘Italian’ characters in comics and not surprisingly most of the origin stories or back-stories were wrapped up in and around ‘Mafia’ (organized crime) story elements.
Somehow, I’m accused of not having a sense of humor because a comment like that bothers me. It has nothing to do with indignation being carried around on my sleeve as much as it does calling it for what it is.
It’s not any more appealing than a host of other stereotypes that are thrown around. As far as the people laughing, I laugh too sometimes to be polite when someone says something stupid of only not to embarrass them.
- Oversensitive, I like that.
Need a mirror?
- So, as long as we are clear, you find any reference to organized crime as an inherent slight against Italians?
I say--shame on you sir! You neglect the great contributions made by other ethnic groups to our proud tradition of criminal scum. The Irish, for eample--The Winter Hill Gang, Edward "Punchy" McLaughlin, Dennis "Dinny" Meehan, Richard "Peg Leg" Lonergan, Albert "Mad Hatter" Anastasia, Edward "Eddie The Butcher" Cummiskey, Terry "Machine Gun" Druggan, George Horace "Kid" McCoy, etc etc.
But it's true that the Irish mob is completely unrepresented in popular culture, once you forget about such movies as The Public Enemy, Angels with Dirty Faces, Prime Cut, The Sting, Miller's Crossing, Gangs of New York, Road to Perdition, The Departed and a bunch of others. Not to mention The Black Donnellys and Brotherhood on TV.
There's also the kosher nostra, populated by such colorful men as Max "Kid Twist" Zwerbach, "Big" Jack Zelig, Vach "Cyclone Louie" Lewis,harles "Charlie the Cripple" Litoffsky, "Dopey" Benny Fein,"The Greaser" Rosenzweig, Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel, Louis "Lepke" Buchalter, Joseph "Doc" Stacher, Hyman "Curly" Holtz, Louis "Shadows" Kravitz, Harry Tietlebaum, Philip "Little Farvel" Kovolick and Harry "Big Greenie" Greenberg.
And I don't know how February passed without mention of those African American pioneers such as Stephanie St. Clair, Leroy "Nicky" Barnes, Dwayne "Wonderful Wayne" Davis, Demetrius "Big Meech" Flenory, Bumpy Johnson and many others who overcame anti-black bigotry to rise among the ranks of our nations criminal elite.
But some folks see "Joe the Plumber" and automatically think Italian. Shameful.
Posted by: mister_pj: Oh, you mean this email?
email repeated (regarding being condescending)
Yeah, I can see how that’s so extreme it would cause you such tsuris.
****, you’re kind of not answering what I wrote right above your post.
I think some folks see Mafia wiseguy as an Italian reference.
Posted by: Peter David: You’re right… ratio of intelligent people against the total population.
So basically you're arguing that I have to watch what I say because of what stupid people might think.
If that's your point, you're certainly making a good argument for it.
PAD
It just goes on and on and on. Basically, Peter’s fans are backing him up. There are a couple of people who are interested in discussing the thing - it wasn’t so much a discussion I wanted to have. Mainly I wanted an acknowledgement of some kind and truthfully the phrase
‘Mafia wiseguy’ is a buzz phrase. People start parsing things but the inference is clear. The guy wrote something, he was going for a joke and I understand it. At the same time though he was playing to a stereotype I’m getting sick of hearing about because it’s day has passed.
What’s great is the circular logic used in the argument. First off, someone writes something with a clear inference. They offer up proof of the stereotype succinctly verifying its existence. In the process they indict themselves. Then when that is called into question they try to obfuscate the argument going back on another point or by being insulting (and look I know I’m as bad as the next guy with the dick comment).
We could go round in circles forever. How egotistical is PAD? This was his last email:
Next comes the part where you inform me you're going to stop reading my work.
PAD
LOL!
I responded thusly:
Dude, thanks for reducing this down to such an infantile level. You're really stretching here aren't you? Is it that hard to say you're wrong?
(although I will admit, I can laugh about the statement if only because I know that is usually how these things play out for you and it is a funny comment)
I guess what I should have written back is,
“I have your permission?” Because I’m sure PAD is thinking there that the world revolves around him. (LOL)
And he’s not a bad guy... I just happen to disagree with him a lot on this. If it makes it easier for him so be it. I’m just really annoyed at his attitude overall. Plus, Peter sees the need to prove he’s superior somehow. He can’t acknowledge when he wrote what he wrote he was trying to paint a very specific word picture.
Peter, I doubt you’ll read this because you’re just too f**kin dense. I still stand by what I said though and at the end of the day you can call me all the names you want but what is amazing in all of it, is how privileged you seem to feel, how much the attitudes of others mean so little to you.
I certainly hope you don’t find yourself on the receiving end of the same treatment some day, now that... that would be funny. Not the ha-ha funny you were shooting for with the off the cuff joke, the cheap shot you figured on getting away with but the ironic kind that the people who pull this kind of crap wind up have happening to them all too often as some kind of balancing of the scales.
Oh, and lastly... the whole business about being oversensitive. Well, I decided to forward the whole thing exchanges, emails and all to a couple of organizations and see how they view it. Maybe you’re right PAD, maybe I am being oversensitive. Or maybe... you’ll find I’m not the only person who finds your cheap shots distasteful. Seems to me it would have been a whole lot simpler just to own up to it instead of trying to be so superior.
I don’t need this battle but I can forward comments you’ve made along to groups who can determine how they feel about it.
See, I made one comment but, with you... it’s about being right even when you’re wrong. I gave more than one occasion for wiggle room just to acknowledge or recognize the existence of the kind of thing I’m talking about. Something that is so pervasive in the society, so accepted - a blind eye is turned to it because people don’t speak up.
Yeah, I’ve got to imagine that’s why you would rather run in it a thread on your blog than just to deal with it through the back and forth of correspondence. Dude, don’t explain it to me, explain to all the other people in the industry who are Italian the next time you throw around cracks like that.
Oh, and the latest of course is Peter trying to bury the thread and posting this really ‘enlightened’ passage about Colin Powell... mighty big of you there Peter.